Hi James,
This is actually quite an interesting thread, and it deals with matters that are both timely and vital for our understanding. I think that, during the course of your reply, you actually give a VERY good answer to the question, “What is ‘the Church’” and “What is ‘a church?’” In the course of doing so, you also raise a few questions that appear to be of concern to you, as you have touched on them before with me in previous emails, and so I would like to address those as well.
You write:
The intention of this comment is to consider Babylon in relation to the Seventh-Day Adventist church. There have been many cries that have gone up over the years denouncing the Seventh-Day Adventist church as Babylon. Are they true? Could they be?
I think it is clear to both of us that most of the claims that “the SDA Church is ‘Babylon’” over the years have been false ones. I think it is equally clear to us both that the description, if not the very name, (which means “confusion”) fits it just as well as it would any nominal or worldly religious organization. The question is, as you rightly ask “Could they be?” “Could” these claims be correct, or could it be possible that one of them is true when the previous ones are false?
It has always been Satan’s method of operation, when he cannot win an argument, to change the question. For example, he knew, even from the Garden of Eden, that one day a Son would appear and crush his head. And what did he do? He knew that people would desire hope, and so, instead of trying to convince the majority of people that “No messiah is coming,” he did exactly the opposite. He filled the earth with so many saviors (starting with Nimrod, and then his son) that by the time of the true Christ the skeptics had a far more powerful weapon that straight-up unbelief. They had counterfeits and bad examples. They said, “We have heard all this before. Which Messiah do you want us to believe in now? Theudas, who led four hundred men? Judas of Galilee?” Even Gamaliel, in arguing against punishing the apostles, pointed out that there were many who claimed to be someone special.
Christ also said, “Then if any man shall say unto you, ‘Lo, here is Christ, or there,’ believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (Mat 24:23, 24)
This did not mean there was no Christ, and in fact, He said that He would return; therefore, rather than saying, “Do not believe anyone claiming to be Christ,” or “Never believe anyone claiming to be a prophet.” Instead, He said, “I will return, and when I do it will be with glory, so that there will be no question about it.”
Similarly, we have Biblical records of various organizational changes to the Body of Christ. In each case, as we’ve discussed by email, the once-faithful body adopts pagan errors, at which point it is described as being in the condition of “Babylon.” No Church, no organization, anywhere, ever, or at any time, is declared to be “immune” from the Babylonian condition. It is not possible to construe any of Ellen White’s statements as some kind of wholesale immunity to Babylon, and several of her statements actually indicate that it is a very real danger. Therefore it is certainly possible that it “could” be true that the title would apply to the SDA Church, or ANY Church that was once honored as the Bride of Christ, if the circumstances were proper. Not every claim would be true, just as most “Christs” would prove false, but this does not mean we fall asleep and wait for the ship to sail causally into port. We are told to “watch and pray” for a reason.
Now the question is, IF such a claim were true, why would it be true? It is not merely because the SDA Church has adopted bad policies, and become corrupted by worldly theology. Even if this made them “Babylon” by definition, by description, (that is, confused) that is still not sufficient cause to leave it for another organization. If, however, an angel were to say of it, “Babylon is FALLEN,” then we would know the next step – “Come out of her, my people.”
You see, what the false prophets have claimed with regard to the SDA Church, “She is Babylon, so come out of her,” reveals that they were not truly speaking for God. God does NOT call people out of spiritual Babylon, and He never has. It is when Babylon falls that He calls people out of an organization that is not only corrupt, but corrupted beyond remedy.
And further, Christ – just as He has told us how to recognize Himself – tells us how to recognize His bride. He tells us how to recognize the voice of His bride, even if she is calling from the wilderness, and saying, “That false woman has fallen. The Groom is coming for me.”
How do we know when Babylon falls? We are told clearly:
“It was apostasy that led the early church to seek the aid of the civil government, and this prepared the way for the development of the papacy--the beast. [...] So apostasy in the church will prepare the way for the image to the beast.” [Great Controversy p. 443-444] As we know, the image of the beast is created by a fallen Church, a direct result, not of merely being Babylon (confused) but of being broken without remedy.
More directly:
“Thus by choosing a heathen ruler, the Jewish nation had withdrawn from the theocracy. They had rejected God as their king. Henceforth they had no deliverer. They had no king but Caesar. To this the priests and teachers had led the people. For this, with the fearful results that followed, they were responsible. A nation's sin and a nation's ruin were due to the religious leaders.” [Desire of Ages, Page 737, Paragraph 6]
“When the early church departed from God and imbibed pagan errors, she became Babylon. When she united with the state, she fell, and, as an organization, was the body of Christ no longer.” [First Quarter Sabbath School, Lesson IX, February 29, 1896, p. 33]
“It has ever been true that a backslidden body, one that has turned from God's word to men, from God's power to the state, was never reformed in itself. Invariably God's message has called out those from the fallen church who would do His will and preach His gospel.” [First Quarter Sabbath School, Lesson X, March 7, 1896, pp. 35, 36]
“[The priests] cried out for the crucifixion of Christ and, as representatives of the Jewish nation, placed themselves under the Roman jurisdiction, which they despised, by saying, ‘We have no king but Caesar.’ When they said this, they unchurched themselves.” [Manuscript Releases Volume Twelve, page 388, paragraph 1]
We have already discussed, by email, the wording that Ellen White uses with regard to civil courts in religious matters, specifically stating that such an action “crucifies Christ afresh,” which shows without controversy that the Bible, Ellen White’s writings, and the teachings of the then-faithful SDA Church are in perfect accord on these matters. It is, therefore, a sure word of prophecy, and a stable foundation on which to build.
When the CSDA Church says of the mainstream SDA Church with the voice of the angel in Revelation 18, “Come out of her, my people,” we are not merely repeating the accusations and words of the would-be reformers of the past. This is a new thing. The SDA Church has fallen due to its marriage to the civil powers of the world. That is a very recent event; up until that time, they had been innocent of the act that creates “Babylon fallen.” At this present time, and not before, they have “placed themselves under [the second beast’s] jurisdiction, which they despised...” etc. This is a thing that was never done in the days of Ellen White, but a thing that was routinely and repeatedly explained as THE point at which a confused body becomes “Babylon FALLEN,” a key distinction, and then true reform takes place, a re-form of the organized body.
To deal with some of your specific concerns:
“God has a people in which all heaven is interested, and they are the one object on earth dear to the heart of God. Let every one who reads these words give them thorough consideration; for in the name of Jesus I would press them home upon every soul. When any one arises, either among us or outside of us, who is burdened with a message which declares that the people of God are numbered with Babylon, and claims that the loud cry is a call to come out of her, you may know that he is not bearing the message of truth.” {Review and Herald, August 29, 1893 par. 5}
Shortly before the putting forth of this statement, the cry had gone forth that the Seventh-Day Adventist church was Babylon and that God’s people were called to come out of her. However, the prophetess did not say, “Those that have arose…,” (past tense) nor did she say, “Those who are now arising,” (present tense) but instead she said, “When any one arises….” (future tense).
The statement “when one arises” is indeed future tense, however (as I have mentioned in our emails) it refers to an organization that only exists IN the past. In other words, if anyone were to arise today, or at any point in the future, and say “The Seventh-day Adventist Church of August 29, 1893, or any time thereafter for a hundred years, was Babylon” we would dispute them with as much fervor as the prophetess did. The statement would simply be untrue.
To illustrate, let us look at the Bible:
“For David said, ‘The Lord God of Israel hath given rest unto his people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem for ever.’” (1Ch 23:25)
“But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.” (Joel 3:20)
Any good SDA apologist will say, “But these things ARE true, fulfilled to spiritual Israel.” And of course, they would be right. But this leads to the question, “What is Israel?” precisely as our question of today reads, “What is the Church?” The point here should be obvious, and lest we relegate it merely to Old Testament prophecy, superseded by the New Covenant, let us not forget the arguably strongest statement of all to this effect:
“And I say also unto thee, ‘That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’” (Mat 16:18)
Any good Protestant will say, “Of course, that Church is the same as THIS church, but the organization has changed because the previous ones fell.”
Well, now we are getting somewhere. The gates of hell “shall not” (future tense) prevail against the Church established under Peter and the other apostles. We all agree with that; yet the Church against which the gates of hell would NEVER (we agree) prevail no longer existed (as an organization) following its union with.... the government of pagan Rome.
You see, James... the Bible, and history, are 100% consistent on this point. Promises, made in whatsoever tense (past, present, future) only cover the existing organization as long as it exists in its present faithful, spiritual form. This is the reason WHY we are told by inspiration that all these promises are conditional upon corporate obedience to the Word of God.
Thus:
Now let us read the whole sentence again:
“When any one arises, either among us or outside of us, who is burdened with a message which declares that the people of God are numbered with Babylon, and claims that the loud cry is a call to come out of her, you may know that he is not bearing the message of truth.” {Review and Herald, August 29, 1893 par. 5}
To this we say, “Amen!” Those who attempted to draw people out of the SDA Church when she was faithful were agents of the enemy of souls. The were the false prophets, and the false christs, of which the Savior warned. And how can we know, with the sure word of prophecy, that she is NOT today the same Church, and therefore not currently protected by this promise? What are the fruits of its union with the world? Such a thing just about answers itself, and the fact that there IS such a union at all places this distinctly in the “fact” category rather than the “assumption” or “interpretation.” There is no need to interpret such phrases as “unchurched themselves” through any kind of apologetic spin.
I might also point out the danger in thinking along the lines of, “If the SDA Church was to fall, surely Ellen White would have seen it.” I am not saying that you would espouse that statement as it is written there, but of course if we even begin to entertain such an idea, we give her far too much credit, and place her higher than Daniel or Jeremiah, who were not permitted to see the fall of the Jewish Nations, even though their own prophecies gave the indicators of its eventual fall. Prophets, just like everyone else, are not given more than they can bear.
In any event, we declare today that, “The CSDA Church IS the SDA Church that is NOW, in this generation, faithful to the commandments of God, and has the faith of Jesus.” I think, upon further examination, you will be able to say, “Amen” to that as well. This issue, with regard to the tense of Mrs. White’s statement, also appears to cover the second quoted passage as well; if I have missed anything vital from it, please let me know.
Now, here is where you answer the question posed by the title of this thread:
Who are the “people of God” to which she refers?
First, Ellen White makes it plain in this series of articles that at that time, Seventh-Day Adventists were the only people who were fulfilling the description given of the remnant people, who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus:
This is quite correct. The question that you, and everyone aware of these issues must ask is, “Is the mainstream SDA Church fulfilling the description given of the remnant people?” “Do they keep the commandments of God?” “Do they have the faith of Jesus?”
If we are really honest here, the results of such an examination would be 0/3.
The remnant people are a small, humble people, “unknown to the Catholics,” from one inspired description, who are faithful to the principles of religious liberty, because they are Protestants. Thus, the Gen. Conference’s version of Seventh-day Adventist does not fit the description of the remnant people.
The mainstream SDA Church does NOT keep the commandments of God. As the then-faithful SDA Church openly taught, “"Now I want to state a little further upon the principle that no Christian, being a citizen of the kingdom of God, can of right start any procedure in connection with civil government. After it is started by the government itself, that is another question . . . I repeat therefore, that upon the principles which govern kingdoms and governments, the very principle of the law in heaven,or law in earth, a Christian cannot start any procedure in connection with civil government. And of all Christians, Seventh-day Adventists cannot do it. The very keeping of the Sabbath forbids it." [1895 General Conference Bulletin, page 28. - by AT Jones]
Those corporately involved in a civil lawsuit over religious matters are not, in the truly important sense, Sabbath-keepers. A National Sunday Law, should it be passed tomorrow, would no more reveal the wheat from the tares in the SDA Church than would a law requiring everyone to avoid eating pork.
In another sense, by failing to teach the Victory over Sin doctrine, the righteousness by faith aspect of the Gospel that we both seem to promote, they also violate this second identifying feature, for as inspiration reveals: “All who claim to be Sabbath-keeping Adventists, and yet continue in sin, are liars in God’s sight.” [MS 19, p. 177]
According to Biblical principles, and supported by the Spirit of Prophecy, no Church can really be a commandment-keeping people, unless they are a Sabbath-keeping Body actively engaged in teaching (and living) the Victory over Sin through Christ (for that is the “Faith of Jesus,” the third criterion).
With regard to that third criterion more specifically, the Faith of Jesus as it relates to Righteousness by Faith, “When the doctrine we accept kills sin in the heart, purifies the soul from defilement, bears fruit unto holiness, we may know that it is the truth of God.” [Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, Ch.6 ]
By our examination, that leaves us with a candidate of exactly one, and the mainstream SDA organization is not it.
“Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. Jesus said, ‘The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. . . . So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.’” {Review and Herald, August 29, 1893 par. 9}
“The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time.” {Christ’s Object Lessons, 71.3}
We declare that at this point in the Investigative Judgment, this IS the harvest, and the end of probationary time. The problem is, unless people can accurately answer the question of “Where/What IS the Church?” they will not even know that they aren’t standing on the ground that is being shaken! They were long shaken out when their organization fell, and if they remain unwarned they will not so much as feel a tremor before it is too late, and the books are forever sealed.
There is a claim made by many that because the Seventh-Day Adventist Church fits the description of Laodicea, that they have been spued out of the mouth of God. Let us investigate this claim.
This is not a claim made by the CSDA church. The issue of “Laodicea” does not even enter into the matter, because that is a condition that pre-dates Babylon. God does not spue people out of Laodicea. He spues out a people who, while they WERE Laodicea, received a warning that went unheeded. If, during their time at Laodicea, God had sent them a message saying (for example) “We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon if the camp is not cleansed,” He does not, at that point, visit any judgment upon them.
If, many decades later, they have made the situation even worse, becoming open in their defiance of Heaven, that is another matter entirely. Yahweh’s warnings are not to be taken lightly, and ONLY those who make light of them can ignore the penalties that were prophesied should the conditions become, well, exactly what they are now. God is faithful, and His messengers speak the truth, whether blessings or curses.
Notice the words of the prophetess, “The church of Christ on earth will be imperfect, but God does not destroy his church because of its imperfection.”
We agree. Any who have read our articles carefully (without merely skimming them for agreement or disagreement) will take note that we have been very clear in our reasons for identifying the SDA Church as being in a condition of “Babylon fallen,” a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. It is not because it is “imperfect,” but because it has followed the well-defined and specific steps that the Word of God itself identifies as the path to utter destruction for a religious organization.
After their departure from Him, God granted to each of these a period of probation, and when that probationary period was over, then God signally departed from them. But it is not for man to say when God’s longsuffering is over, unless He Himself plainly reveals it first.
This is correct. Our analysis of the development of the Trademark case against Kinship International, and the lawsuits that follow, outline this period of probation, and God's many warnings through the inspired writings, long before the events they described came to pass. A word of caution, however: it is a mistake to believe that every member will be aware that this probationary period has ended – or even that it had ever begun. One cannot say, “I never heard about any of this, so the SDA Church cannot have fallen yet.” The crucifixion of Christ, and the stoning of Stephen, was not revealed to most Jews until LONG after the Christian Church had replaced the Israelite Nation as the People of Yahweh. Nevertheless, they were responsible for it, and needed to, as the Book of Acts describes, repent and be converted to the truth.
This leads to:
Some would say that the Jewish nation’s probation was over when they persecuted the followers of Christ, and that any religious entity’s probation is over when they do the same, but this also doesn’t stand up to sacred history. The prophets were persecuted and even slain for many centuries in ancient Israel, but they still bore the title of God’s chosen people. Finally, God sent His own son to them (See Mark 12:1-8). Him they slew too, yet their probation was still not up. Their probation ended when God Himself, through prophecy, declared that it would, at the end of the 490 years.
This is generally correct with regard to the events listed, but the examples are not particularly relevant to the current situation. First, God does not always announce the fall of an organization with a specific day-year prophecy (for example, none was given for the Roman Catholic Church or the Sunday-keeping Protestants up until the time of William Miller, and the Cleansing of the Sanctuary did not clearly indicate a change of organization). Second, with regard to Israel, the prophets were persecuted and slain by their own people, who despised the message from God. Christ was slain in a manner that differed from the martyrs in two major ways:
1) He was the Son of God Himself, and not a mere messenger.
2) He was not killed by the Jews alone, but specifically by a “beast,” by a union of Church and State.
The persecution of Christians, as it is currently being undertaken by the mainstream SDA Church, is like this. Ellen White specifically says that the use of lawsuits to settle religious disputes was the crucifixion of Christ afresh, the killing of His own Son in an open, shameful way. Clearly, the means by which this was accomplished was through an “image” to that beast – a new ecclesiastical organization using civil power to accomplish its ends.
Thus, this modern crucifixion very much mirrors the fall of the Jewish Nation, and not the persecution or even murder of any individual prophet from the time of Israel’s disobedience. This is a far more serious matter, especially since we are in a period of history during which “time shall be no more.” We do not have any day/age/year statements to say, “The SDA Church will be given 120 years to repent.” The last movements, as it is written, have been rapid ones, and Christ is coming for His Bride.
Regardless of how much evidence can be given that the message to Laodicea is applicable to the Seventh-Day Adventist church, this does not make it Babylon. Nor does it mean that it has been or will be spued out of God’s mouth, for those who will be spued out are the tares, not the wheat in the church. They both grow together in the church till the close of probationary time. At that point, it will be evidently made manifest who is and who is not spued out of God’s mouth.
All quite true. All completely unrelated to the current state of the SDA Church. Laodicea is NOT Babylon, nor is it Babylon Fallen. Those are three very different states, and we have seen a number of SDA defenders setting up “straw man” arguments against our warnings due to ignoring or minimizing the distinction. We know the things of which we speak, and they are clearly set forth in what we have written with regard to this matter.
All the statements that follow, with regard to Laodicea, depend upon these states being the same, therefore I will leave them unless you have some particular quotation that you believe is not covered by what I have said.
“It was a betrayal of sacred trust to take that which Jesus designed should be kept secret, and publish it to others, and bringing upon the cause of truth reproach and injury. The Lord has given to his people appropriate messages of warning, reproof, counsel, and instruction, but it is not appropriate to take these messages out of their connection, and place them where they will seem to give force to messages of error.
No doubt, that referred to particular individuals of her time. Rest assured, we do not have any special access to Ellen White’s private writings. All that we have set forth are based on the Bible, and a few public statements by Ellen White, well published in her books, and other teachings of faithful SDA Bible workers. The “Manuscript Releases,” given as an example below, hardly constitutes a private letter that was never meant to be used for anything but a personal communication.
Of course, those who wish to say, “The SDA Church is not, and can never be, Babylon,” are going to pile up ANYTHING that can find that even remotely seems to support their position, regardless of context or relevance...
We prefer to avoid such kinds of disputes... if a reader objectively looks at what the Bible says with regard to what Babylon IS, and compares it to the current situation, they will have no difficulty making the identification. If they can see, and accept, what the Bible and Spirit of prophecy state is the way to become Babylon fallen (imbibe pagan errors, then unite with the civil government, then persecute Christians in a manner that can only be made possible BY that church/state union) then there can really be no question that we have accurately used the Scriptures to conclude what we have concluded.
In your last quote you say:
“When a message comes in the name of the Lord to His people, no one may excuse himself from an investigation of its claims. No one can afford to stand back in an attitude of indifference and self-confidence, and say: ‘I know what is truth. I am satisfied with my position. I have set my stakes, and I will not be moved away from my position, whatever may come. I will not listen to the message of this messenger; for I know that it can not be truth.’ It was from pursuing this very course that the popular churches were left in partial darkness, and that is why the messages of heaven have not reached them.” {Testimonies on Sabbath School Work, 65.1}
My thoughts, and my conclusion, are that if this statement were taken to heart, there would be a LOT more CSDAs in the world today.
Now, of course, most SDAs have been raised to think that even the consideration of the SDA Church as a fallen body is tantamount to blasphemy against God Himself. I understand that mindset perfectly, because it was my own. In fact, I had just decided to “come home” to the SDA Church after a period of lapsed attendance when I found out about the trademark lawsuits, and the doctrine of righteousness by faith. I could not deny that these things were facts – the documentation was clear – and I also understood what it meant on a spiritual and personal level.
God’s Church keeps His commandments, teaches the truth, and is NOT a persecuting power. The mainstream SDA Church, by definition, could NOT be that Church as surely as 1 = 1. It was a tremendous shock to me, and I felt betrayed that such things could happen to “my Church” without my knowledge, and here I was trying to be a good Christian...
But the good news is that by accepting the Gospel as it is, “self” is truly dead, and I could separate myself from the emotionality of it. Without a need to defend one side or another, or to choose a bias to hold, I was able to objectively examine what it is that God wanted me (and all of His people) to do.
I was baptized into His CSDA Church shortly thereafter, and He has kept me faithfully these several years. To those who have difficulty being convinced of all these things, I have said to them (as I have said to you), “Come and see!”
I make here a request for fellowship. It is good to have these discussions on the forum, and I hope that they continue, but if you only see the doctrines, and the on-paper theology, you will not get a true picture of the “Family of Yahweh,” which is more than just a sum of beliefs and practices. If you are truly examining the CSDA Church to see if we are the Remnant, then I make an appeal to you to do a thorough examination, and this includes the issue of fellowship.
As you know, we have our Bible studies online on Friday nights, and I know you made something of an attempt three weeks ago, but I haven’t really heard of anything further since. Nevertheless, I hold out hope that, if you wish to be a brother in Christ, we will have some “fraternity,” some true brotherhood.
To conclude with a return to the original question, “What is the Church?” I think you have actually answered the question sufficiently well from the Spirit of Prophecy (the description, the commandments, the faith of Jesus). I would only add that the Church of God is the Bride of Christ, the one woman in all the world who is a "virgin," such as a High Priest must marry (Lev 21:10-15) not known to other men (Pagan Rome, the U.S. Civil Government, International politics, etc., etc.).
While that once did, indeed, describe the mainstream SDA Church, today “she saith in her heart, ‘I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.’” (Rev 18:7)