CSDA's use an invalid pronunciation for Christ's name

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X-Calibre
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CSDA's use an invalid pronunciation for Christ's name

Postby X-Calibre » June 3rd, 2012, 6:53 pm

One of the CSDA teachings and practices which, while not a test, is peculiar to them, is the use of "Sacred Names". As the Wikipedia article states, the "use of the names יהוה (Yahweh) and יהושע (Yahshua) for the Father and Son of the Godhead in worship are generally practiced by members, although these are not dogmatically taught." One of the doctrinal papers, written by their prophet, David Aguilar, states regarding the logic behind the pronunciation Yahshua, "even more significant now are Christ’s words in John 10:38, “The Father is in me, and I in Him,” and we can indeed see that “Yah” is in “Yahshua,” and “Yah saves,” is an integral part of the concept of YAHWEH." Further, Aguilar says, "I believe using the true identification for the Father and Son is important..."

So, logic would have it, that if using the true identification was important, and this was revealed to an inspired individual, then it would also have been revealed if there was an error in that pronunciation.

One Messianic Jew friend of mine has studied much into the development of the Hebrew Language, including pronunciations. He is in process of translating the Bible from Hebrew. He states:

There are four basic types of presumption which result in inauthentic pronunciations of Messiah's Hebrew Name.

1. The presumption that the Jewish pronunciation of Hebrew has not changed since Messiah's birth.
2. The presumption that Messiah's name was pronounced like the ancient pronunciation of the name of Joshua son of Nun, one and a half millenia before Messiah's birth.
3. The presumption that Messiah's name needs to have an unmodified 'Yah' or יהו in it.
4. The presumption that Messiah's name has been deliberately modified to make it blasphemous.

The results of these presumptions:

- The 1st results in the modern Jewish pronunciation "Yeshua" which wrongly has two short vowels instead of two long vowels, a third added short 'a' (the Masoretic 'furtive patach' glide vowel), and usually the loss of the final guttural consonant.
- The 2nd and 3rd result in "Yehoshua" or "Yahushua" or incorrectly constructed names such as "Yahshua"/"Yahvahosha"/"Yahusha" which have been recently invented and do not have a shred of historical evidence. These pseudo-'original' names are incompatible with the spelling of Messiah's Name in all ancient manuscripts of the New Covenant Scriptures in Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew and Latin, which consistently reflect ישוע.
- The 4th presumption pushes people from making good use of the evidence before them in the Aramaic and Greek Scriptures, because they get hung up on Iesou(s) sounding too much to them like סוס "horse" or the modern American (mis)pronunciation of ζευς "Ze-s", and they forget that there is abundant BC evidence in the post-exilic books of the Hebrew OT (e.g. Neh 8:17) that YHWH-fearing Jews such as Ezra and Nehemiah had come to pronounce Joshua's name as Yêshûʕ. The wisdom book of Yêshûʕ son of Sira also uses the short name, Yêshûʕ. The Greek Septuagint OT also reflects this by scribing Joshua's name as Ιησου(ς), the closest representation of Yêshûʕ (not Yəhôshûʕ, which would better be represented by Ιωσου-) that can be made in Greek letters, centuries before Messiah's birth! The older, longer pronunciation of Joshua's name, Yəhôshûʕ, seems to come back into fashion later, in the writings or the Pharisees (Talmud, Toledot Yeshu) who had developed a belief that a longer name was more honourable than a shorter one. But Messiah's name is honourable, not on account of its length, but because YHWH has exalted His name above every human name!

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X-Calibre
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Re: CSDA's use an invalid pronunciation for Christ's name

Postby X-Calibre » June 3rd, 2012, 6:57 pm

I have tried to post more to the study, but there are problems posting more than this. I have raised it in the technical section.

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Re: CSDA's use an invalid pronunciation for Christ's name

Postby Pastor Chick » June 3rd, 2012, 11:59 pm

X-Calibre wrote:One of the CSDA teachings and practices which, while not a test, is peculiar to them, is the use of "Sacred Names". As the Wikipedia article states, the "use of the names יהוה (Yahweh) and יהושע (Yahshua) for the Father and Son of the Godhead in worship are generally practiced by members, although these are not dogmatically taught." One of the doctrinal papers, written by their prophet, David Aguilar, states regarding the logic behind the pronunciation Yahshua, "even more significant now are Christ’s words in John 10:38, “The Father is in me, and I in Him,” and we can indeed see that “Yah” is in “Yahshua,” and “Yah saves,” is an integral part of the concept of YAHWEH." Further, Aguilar says, "I believe using the true identification for the Father and Son is important..."

So, logic would have it, that if using the true identification was important, and this was revealed to an inspired individual, then it would also have been revealed if there was an error in that pronunciation.


X-CAlibre, I perceive your spirit to be one of accuser and fault-finder rather than a concerned brother offering a suggestion for our benefit.

The article you cite from Binary Angel is easier to understand in context.
Also, even more significant now are Christ’s words in John 10:38, “The Father is in me, and I in Him,” and we can indeed see that “Yah” is in “Yahshua,” and “Yah saves,” is an integral part of the concept of YAHWEH. For this reason, I tend to use the more correct forms Yah and Yahshua for Father and Son, although at times I will use the names God and Jesus, especially when quoting from an existing Bible version, simply for the sake of clarity. Besides, it is not necessarily WRONG to refer to the Messiah as Yahsus or a similar pronunciation, for in the New Testament, the prophet Elijah (Eli-Yah) was called Elias at times, Jonah was called Jonas and so on.

I decided to post this article first, since it deals with a theme, which runs all the way through my other writings, and I am sure readers will wonder why I use the terminology I do. I believe using the true identification for the Father and Son is important, especially if we are to pray and speak and live “In His name” :) May Yah bless you thoroughly in the name of Yahshua His Son.


I am willing to leave a response to your thrust at Bro. Aguilar alone for now. Perhaps he shall offer a sanctified answer for our readers.

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X-Calibre
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Re: CSDA's use an invalid pronunciation for Christ's name

Postby X-Calibre » June 4th, 2012, 1:47 am

This scholar goes on to share:

Image

Image

As a whole, the whole practice of using "Sacred Names" in material meant to be of an outreach purpose, such as in most of the publically available writings of the CSDA teachings, is very distinctive and "different" to a world used to the valid transliteration through the Greek of "Jesus". This goes against prophetic instruction:

Our policy is, Do not make prominent the objectionable features of our faith, which strike most decidedly against the practises and customs of the people, until the Lord shall give the people a fair chance to know that we are believers in Christ, that we do believe in the divinity of Christ, and in his preexistence. Let the testimony of the world's Redeemer be dwelt upon. "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches." There is need of strictly guarding the word that the pen traces upon paper. The Lord help us to learn in the school of Christ his meekness and lowliness. {SpTA05 3.3}

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Re: CSDA's use an invalid pronunciation for Christ's name

Postby David Aguilar » June 4th, 2012, 11:43 am

I am reminded of the quote that those with Satan's spirit will make men an "offender for a word." Even assuming that the "scholar" is correct in all that he has written (which he is not, as I will address in a moment) his statement that "logic would have it, that if using the true identification was important, and this was revealed to an inspired individual, then it would also have been revealed if there was an error in that pronunciation," is demonstrably false.

The poster's scholarship reveals itself to be lacking, for the inspired individuals whom we accept as messengers of God have gone so far as to pronounce "Yahweh" as "Jehovah" from an obviously faulty linguistic tradition that uses the sound of "J" for the Hebrew character "Yod." Those who wish to snipe at Ellen White could easily say, "Why didn't inspiration reveal to her that the word 'Jehovah' was mispronounced?" I submit that the same accusatory spirit is present in the post to which I am responding.

That being as it may, readers of this post may not realize that there are several entire schools of thought regarding the pronunciation of what is, essentially, a "dead language" in terms of its spoken component. Some self-styled experts (and I've read and heard many of them) advance theories, and hold them up to be facts with authoritiative-sounding statements, then the fact of the matter is, if you read what they are saying carefully, they will ultimately admit, "We aren't sure" regarding the pronunciation. This is true for Latin, spoken Greek, and naturally, Biblical Hebrew as well.

The poster would insist that a certain timeframe's pronunciation is more valid than another, demonstrating that pronunciations have, and do, change over time. In reading over the four "presumptions" that it is claimed the CSDA Church makes, I am reminded of the commandment that we are not to bear false witness against others. The fact of the matter is, we hold not a single one of those four to be true (except maybe the second - we have never made a doctrinal statement one way or the other about exactly how Joshua's name was pronounced - because we consider it immaterial; as for the third, even the most loose translation of Y'hshua that "He will save" has the HE referring to the Father, and therefore the understanding is valid). In fact, we actively dispute the fourth, that the name of Christ has been modified in order to make it blasphemous.

We ourselves use the name "Jesus" at times. We ourselves find that we are at odds with the sacred-name groups that believe the pronunciation of the names of the Father and Son are salvation issues. Those who are ignorant of our teachings have, and do, confuse us with these groups at times, but suffice it to say many of the assumptions that have gone into the initial posts here are misunderstandings and false claims about the teachings of the CSDA Church. If one wishes to know what we teach about this, there is the article that was posted, even by the accuser, and the website is freely available for all to read.


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