What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Questions and conversation about religious beliefs, Scripture, the Spirit of Prophecy, and Creation 7th Day Adventism
JamesPrest
Posts: 31
Joined: July 27th, 2013, 6:48 am

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby JamesPrest » November 30th, 2013, 5:35 pm

Oh, and one other thing I thought of. If you want to see who I am, how I spend my time, what I say to others...etc., my Facebook wall contains my history for the past... I don't even know how long. Facebook is also, as I find, where people's true spirit comes out. You are welcome to view my page and everything on it, as it is public:

https://www.facebook.com/james.prest.39

David Aguilar
Posts: 63
Joined: May 28th, 2012, 4:28 pm

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby David Aguilar » November 30th, 2013, 5:51 pm

Hello James,

You wrote, "I do not see a necessity in unity of belief, to answer your plainly."

This is contrary to a "plain" thus saith the Lord.

With regard to a Church that may be joined, Paul speaks about your attitude thus: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10) That requires no interpretation. Your approach to the Church, as some kind of spiritual social club, is entirely the product of your inability to dwell in unity with a set of brethren, whether ours or anyone else's, as you concede yourself by saying, "While it’s possible that I might find a group of people that see eye to eye with me (or me with them) on every point of truth, I personally believe that that is rather unlikely."

While you may dress this schismatic deception up in a robe of righteousness, and make the claim that "I can't find anyone to agree with me, because I - alone of all men - read the Scriptures for what it actually says, rather than what men interpret it to be," it does not take much prophetic ability to understand that you will also be "alone" when Chirst comes to take Home His happy, UNITED people. If you wish a plain statement from Scripture to support that as well, they may be found in abundance. Since you do not seem to enjoy reading answers already given, I will share one such verse with you. Christ Yahshua says: "And the glory which thou [Father] gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one." (John 17:22) With no interpretation whatsoever, the meaning of this verse is plain. Christ has given us the very glory He shared with the Father, so that we may be one, even as They are one. If you are not one with Christ's followers - and Christ DOES have followers on the earth, few as they may be - then you have never accepted the glory that He has given you from the Father. As long as you are intent on resisting the education that would make such a thing even possible, you resist Christ Himself.

Now, if you say, "But this 'joined together in mind' and 'that they may be one' does not mean we have to have the same beliefs," then I can only conclude that you are deliberately avoiding the "plain" meaning of this verse. Only a reprobate mind can believe that we may be "joined in mind" with someone and not share their beliefs. Only one under the darkest of deceptions could think that the Father and Son may be described as being "one" if the will of One were not in perfect harmony with the will of the Other, such that there were "no divisions" between them save role. In short, there is no other way that a Church CAN be "one" except in a common set of beliefs, and a shared purpose of ministry. You keep "apologizing" for the way your statements come across, as debative, as argumentative, but you seem to make no movements toward trying to see if the fault may lie in the way you are approaching the Word of God. Brother Luke has rightly pointed out that your readings thus far have not been particularly careful in this approach, since you missed the obvious statements from Mrs. White regarding the "Church" being kept from the assaults of Hell's Gates that supported my answers to you from several posts ago.

I wonder if you can accept that you might actually have something left to learn. I wonder if it may dawn on you that we, the Church of the Messiah, might actually have something to teach you beyond those specific things that you yourself think you wish to learn (and that, with some difficulty).

In any case, to answer the final questions you asked, I would say that based on what the Lord has plainly said with regard to unity, and common judgment, and having the same "mind," then obviously - No. You are not of the same mind and Spirit of the members of the CSDA Church. To accept you into membership without a unity of belief and faith would be to deny the Word of Scripture, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with creeds, and everything to do with being of "one mind," with the very approach to the Gospel and Salvation, so you cannot merely make an excuse about the CSDAs being "just like every other Church that focuses on creeds" and preserve your faulty view of integrity with a false witness regarding what we have said to you.

If you were to actually take the time to study our writings, and approach us with a true spirit of humility (as opposed to thinking of yourself as a very special exception) then perhaps you would actually come to agree with what we believe - since they ARE Biblical, derived directly from the Scriptures and from Spirit-led conclusions regarding its contents - and then you would be "one" with us.

When and if this should happen, then you would be a member already, and no man would be able to forbid you water. But as long as you are NOT "one" with us, then your presence among us under the label of "member" would be nothing but a parody of Chrisitan unity. I trust my answer to you is direct enough for your liking.

JamesPrest
Posts: 31
Joined: July 27th, 2013, 6:48 am

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby JamesPrest » November 30th, 2013, 6:01 pm

Very direct, yes, and as thus, very much to my liking. Based off of what you just said above, your church has a creed to which all members must subscribe, and as such, I am no longer interested. Here is a list of answers to objections that are giving in favor of the church creed, one of which, you have most specifically given above. I know that this article does not directly apply to you or represent you in any way, but I think that the points addressed therein are related to how you view things. The article explains why I am personally against such views.

-------------

The intention of this article is to bring to view several different Bible texts and Ellen White statements that are presented as Adventist arguments which validate Catholicism to its core. The reason that it is desired for these arguments to be exposed is because they actually hinder the furtherance of the gospel of Jesus and all true reformation.

While there has been much hesitancy to use the following statement from Ellen White, for the reason that it can be used to justify practically every sin and abomination in the book, it finds its proper application in this article. Here it is:

“God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.” {Manuscript Releases, Vol. 6, 354.3}

Now we enter our list of Adventist/Catholic arguments:

#1: (Adventist/Catholic Argument): “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” Romans 16:17.

During the reformation of the 16th century, those faithful reformers of their times protested against the corruptions and false doctrines held by the Roman Catholic Church. Romans 16:17 is a wonderful verse for Catholic clergymen to use in aiding them in their efforts to shut away the light of heaven from shining on their flocks. True reformation often results in separation and division, and just because someone is preaching a message or teaching a doctrine that causes divisions and offences contrary to what we have learned, does not always mean that we should avoid them. “Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.” Catholics would love for their members to avoid listening to the Protestants and Adventists that teach doctrines contrary to what they have learned in the Catholic Church. Adventists use this same verse in a way that effectually cuts them off from being corrected if they are in error, just like the Catholics do.

“The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God’s people should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition and worship they know not what.” {Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, 707.1}

#2: (Adventist/Catholic Argument) “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” 1 Corinthians 1:10.

Is Paul saying that we should all speak the same errors and that we be perfectly joined together in doing evil and judging wrongly? Of course not. Please consider the following statements carefully.

“God calls for unity among His people in these last days, but there cannot be unity without firm adherence to right principles.” {Manuscript Releases, Vol. 10, 46.2}

“Christ calls for unity. But He does not call for us to unify on wrong practices. The God of heaven draws a sharp contrast between pure, elevating, ennobling truth and false, misleading doctrines. He calls sin and impenitence by the right name. He does not gloss over wrongdoing with a coat of untempered mortar.” {Manuscript Releases, Vol. 17, 306.2}

“After a long and severe conflict, the faithful few decided to dissolve all union with the apostate church if she still refused to free herself from falsehood and idolatry. They saw that separation was an absolute necessity if they would obey the word of God. They dared not tolerate errors fatal to their own souls, and set an example which would imperil the faith of their children and children’s children. To secure peace and unity they were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God; but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war.

“Well would it be for the church and the world if the principles that actuated those steadfast souls were revived in the hearts of God’s professed people. There is an alarming indifference in regard to the doctrines which are the pillars of the Christian faith. The opinion is gaining ground, that, after all, these are not of vital importance. This degeneracy is strengthening the hands of the agents of Satan, so that false theories and fatal delusions which the faithful in ages past imperiled their lives to resist and expose, are now regarded with favor by thousands who claim to be followers of Christ. {The Great Controversy, 45.3-46.1}

Now back to our Catholic argument. “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” 1 Corinthians 1:10.

How fitting would this verse be for Catholicism back in the days when the reformers were teaching things that were different from the teachings and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which reformed teachings caused divisions and ended up causing a great separation? Were the protesting reformers and the Catholic Church all speaking the same things and being perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment? Well of course not. And praise the Lord for that! This argument is used by Adventists today, in many cases hindering all true reformation in the church, just like it had done back in the Dark Ages. “Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.”

#3: (Adventist/Catholic Argument) “Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.” Proverbs 11:14.

This verse appears to be greatly abused by churches today and clergymen of the same. Says Christ:

“Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.” Matthew 23:8-10.

Thus we have one Teacher, one Father, one Master, one above us—Jesus Christ—and the rest of us are all brethren; we are all equals. This being the case—that we are all equal before God—having only one true Teacher over us, we too are part of that multitude of counselors.

Churches abuse this and similar verses in different ways, one of which will be addressed here. Says Peter:

“No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” 2 Peter 1:20.

This is simply to mean that no man nor group of men have the right or place to get together and independently and privately interpret the Scriptures for others, much less require others to accept their interpretations on pain of excommunication. What happens, however, is that the clergymen of the church get together, privately interpret the Scriptures and require others to accept their interpretations, and then say, “In the multitude of counsellors there is safety.” Anyone who opposes the interpretations of this group by holding different views, are told that they are privately interpreting the Scriptures, falling to see that this is exactly what they have done themselves. They also fail to realize that since we are all brethren in Christ, that we too are part of the Bible’s “multitude of counsellors” and actually have a say in that counsel.

It is claimed by these independent groups of counselors that we should accept their private interpretation of the Scriptures because there is safety in group counsel. While it is true that there is safety in group counsel, it doesn’t change the fact that we are all part of the counsel. Nor does it change the fact that sometimes the multitude of counselors are corrupt and/or in error. The Roman Catholic Church is a great example of this. The Jewish counsel of Jesus’ time is an even better example. Virtually the entire Jewish counsel was corrupt and in grave error, with the exception of Gamaliel and perhaps a few others. Remember, “Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.” If the council is corrupt or in error, is there any safety in it? Of course not.

Adventists today use the respected text above to justify their getting together and privately interpreting the Scriptures for others and requiring acceptance of their interpretations in order for one to become a member of God’s church. All of this is out of harmony with the plain teachings of the word of God.

“The church is built upon Christ as its foundation; it is to obey Christ as its head. It is not to depend upon man, or be controlled by man. Many claim that a position of trust in the church gives them authority to dictate what other men shall believe and what they shall do. This claim God does not sanction. The Saviour declares, ‘All ye are brethren.’ All are exposed to temptation, and are liable to error. Upon no finite being can we depend for guidance.” {Desire of Ages, 414.3}

#4: (Adventist/Catholic Argument) “Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.” Proverbs 19:27.

“Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.” It is dangerous to just assume that if someone is teaching something against what you believe, that listening to them may cause you to err from true knowledge. It is dangerous to just assume that they are speaking lies. It is our responsibility to listen to what they are saying and to test it by the word of God before we rashly shut our ears away from hearing what we believe is error (See Bible text and statement below). Imagine Roman Catholicism using this verse to compel their members not to listen to the message of Adventism. What then? “Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.”

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

“Precious light is to shine forth from the Word of God, and let no one presume to dictate what shall or what shall not be brought before the people in the messages of enlightenment that He shall send, and so quench the Spirit of God. Whatever may be his position of authority, no one has a right to shut away the light from the people. When a message comes in the name of the Lord to His people, no one may excuse himself from an investigation of its claims. No one can afford to stand back in an attitude of indifference and self-confidence, and say: ‘I know what is truth. I am satisfied with my position. I have set my stakes, and I will not be moved away from my position, whatever may come. I will not listen to the message of this messenger; for I know that it can not be truth.’ It was from pursuing this very course that the popular churches were left in partial darkness, and that is why the messages of heaven have not reached them.” {Testimonies on Sabbath School Work, 65.1}

#5: (Adventist/Catholic Argument) “There have ever been in the church those who are constantly inclined toward individual independence. They seem unable to realize that independence of spirit is liable to lead the human agent to have too much confidence in himself and to trust in his own judgment rather than to respect the counsel and highly esteem the judgment of his brethren, especially of those in the offices that God has appointed for the leadership of His people. God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for he who does this despises the voice of God.” {Acts of the Apostles, 163.2}

The claim is that Acts of the Apostles 163.2 says that to disregard or despise the authority of the church is to despise the voice of God. Therefore, it is claimed, we should just believe and do whatever the General Conference says.

Let us read another statement:

“O, my very soul is drawn out in these things! Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God, are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,–that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle.” {The General Conference Bulletin, April 3, 1901 par. 25}

In other words, the voice of the General Conference represents the voice of God only when the voice of the General Conference is representing the voice of God. If the General Conference is speaking contrary to the law and the testimony, they aren’t representing the voice of God. It was the same with the Jewish church, and it is the same today. Again, “Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.”

#6: (Adventist/Catholic Argument) “There are a thousand temptations in disguise prepared for those who have the light of truth; and the only safety for any of us is in receiving no new doctrine, no new interpretation of the Scriptures, without first submitting it to brethren of experience. Lay it before them in a humble, teachable spirit, with earnest prayer; and if they see no light in it, yield to their judgment; for ‘in the multitude of counselors there is safety.’” (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, 293.1)

We believe that the reader has sufficient enough information to answer this argument so long as it is understood:

a. That God does not sanction the claim that those in positions of trust have a right to tell others what to believe. (See DA 414.3)
b. That the Bible only is to be our creed, the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. (See GC 595.1 and RH, December 15, 1885 par. 16)
c. That God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. That circumstances alter conditions and change the relation of things. (See 6MR, 354.3)
d. That the Roman Catholic church would love to use this statement to see to it that no one believes contrary to her dogmas.
e. … etc.

And in this we make defense of our case, not because we feel a need of it, but for the sake of those honest inquirers who may be benefited by it.

All further objections that might be given hereafter against said series of articles may not be answered, not because there are no answers to give, but merely because of how easy it is to come up with hundreds of objections which could easily eat up our time should we choose to spend it unnecessarily in answering objections made by those only desiring a battle. “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” Romans 14:5.

David Aguilar
Posts: 63
Joined: May 28th, 2012, 4:28 pm

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby David Aguilar » November 30th, 2013, 6:03 pm

Hello James,

Sadly, you have answered precisely as I anticipated. You merely awaited this reply so that you could continue further in your deception. You have been a self-sent messenger from the beginning, and refuse to submit to the Word of God, despite how plainly it may read, on the basis that "no man can tell me what to believe." A man may read and correctly apply the Word of God, and it is still the Word of God.

Giving a reply that, in your own words, does not even apply to our positions on the above matters, to the teachings that Christ would have you learn of us, reveals your true Spirit. You wish to have your own opinions and conclusions made public, and would utilize our forum (as you would utilize your membership in the CSDA Church) to legitimize your private views. This is precisely why you are not concerned with our beliefs, only your own. That you can admit it without seeing the unChristian approach necessarily involved only speaks to how far you stand from the "mind of Christ."

You ignore entirely my statement with regard to "one mind" because all you can see are the creeds that you so clearly fear with deathly intensity, and which you seem to define (absurdly) as "any standard of behavior or belief to which I might be held." You would resist the judgment of Christ Himself through the Brethren, although such things are plainly taught in the Bible. (1Cor 6:4, Acts 15, etc.) You have no desire to learn the truth, only to find a group of people that are willing to tolerate your independent, willful spirit. Such will not be found among the meek and sensitive children of Yahweh.

JamesPrest
Posts: 31
Joined: July 27th, 2013, 6:48 am

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby JamesPrest » November 30th, 2013, 6:18 pm

Very well then. "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." I have said what I have said, spoken what I have spoken in relation to myself, and you are free to believe me or doubt me.

I often refer to what I have written elsewhere, only so that I need not type it all out again. Blessings to you!

JamesPrest
Posts: 31
Joined: July 27th, 2013, 6:48 am

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby JamesPrest » November 30th, 2013, 6:32 pm

What ever happened to the spirit that actuated Paul? Said he under the inspiration of the spirit:

"Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things." 2 Timothy 2:7.

Yes, unity of the faith is Biblical, there is no question on that. But not forced unity via the church clergy and their interpretations. That is the spirit that actuates Catholicism, not God's true remnant.

I'm just saddened by all this. Sad that God's sheep must accept the interpretations of another fallible human (or group of humans), just to join God's flock.

David Aguilar
Posts: 63
Joined: May 28th, 2012, 4:28 pm

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby David Aguilar » November 30th, 2013, 7:05 pm

James,

I do not believe for a single instant that you are "saddened" by any of "this;" not in the way you intend to portray yourself. I believe you are sad, and have been for a long time. I believe you desire to "belong," but your spirit is simply not shaped for it because of your own choices, carnal fears, and faulty reasoning. There is no doubt that this is tragic.

But it is written, "And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach." (Isa 4:1) As much as I feel for you, I can have nothing further to say to those who would use the dignity of Christ and His Bride for their own, selfish purposes, regardless of the claims that they may make to righteousness. Yahweh's people know His voice, and follow when He calls. They know His wisdom, whether it comes to them in a vision, a dream, from personal study, or in the words of one of their loving brethren. All of this is from the Spirit of Yahweh. They would never consider such to be "forced unity via the church clergy." That is an abominably false interpretation of what happens in the Family of Christ, in "God's Flock" as you have (perhaps unintentionally) confessed it to be. The false witness you have borne of this Flock, despite my warnings, will follow you from this point forward.

What Brother Luke and I have shared with you in this thread, and across several others, is sufficient to identify the "unity" of faith, and those who do not truly wish unity. Mere acceptance is not the same as true, spiritual unity. The record of your conversation among us will speak for itself. I cannot imagine that any further discussion of this will be productive... we simply have far too different a set of views as to what constitutes Christian unity. I have found a people with whom I have unforced likeness of Spirit, with whom I share a love that requires no pressure or authoritarian discipline to "enforce." You see shadows of your own fear, as I have said to you from the very first email that I sent you many months ago. This is the reason why you have never found, and will never find, a group of people with whom you have one-ness. Every curse has a cause, as it is also written in the Word.

You have seen what we have to offer, and have not understood. It is perhaps for the best that you are "no longer interested." You would never find peace among us, just as some would not find peace even in the holy courts of Heaven.

JamesPrest
Posts: 31
Joined: July 27th, 2013, 6:48 am

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby JamesPrest » November 30th, 2013, 8:01 pm

I posted this as a Facebook note a few minutes ago. I wrote due to what many have said, but you were one of them. I made a few edits for your sake.

Today we are going to be talking about true rumors that we have picked up on concerning James Prest.

True Rumor #1 – “James wants people’s attention”

Now let us think about this for just a moment. If someone says something publicly on Facebook, regardless of what it is, is it even rational to say that they don’t want anyone to notice it? Is it not true that if someone says something in a public setting, that they want it to be publicly noticed? What preacher do you know of out there, that preaches to the audience, and wants everyone so totally focused on the ceiling fans as they go around and around, that they hardly even notice that the preacher is there? Of course James wants people’s attention! If he didn’t want people’s attention, he wouldn’t say anything.

True Rumor #2 – “James wants to promote his beliefs”

What true follower of Jesus doesn’t want to tell all the world what he has learned from the words of his Saviour? Would not such action as this only be in harmony with the great commission to “Go… and teach all nations… whatsoever I have commanded you”? (Matthew 28:19, 20.) But forget the commission of Jesus. What person out there truly believes in anything, that doesn’t want those beliefs to be promoted? Of course James wants to promote his beliefs! Who doesn’t?

True Rumor #3 – “James believes all his opinions are right”

Raise your hand if you are one of those people that don’t believe that your own opinions are right. No takers? If James didn’t believe that his opinions were right, he would discard them and get new ones. Who wouldn’t?! What person is out that doesn’t believe their own opinions? Or, more directly stated, what person is out there that doesn’t believe their own beliefs? Someone would have to be as stoned as Mary Jane herself to not believe their own beliefs.

Conclusion

These appear (<- key word again) to be sayings that are calculated solely for the purpose of making someone look conceited, self-interested, and stupid. How so? Because under a simple examination of such claims, the same could be honestly and correctly applicable to virtually everyone on the planet. Who on earth comes up with this stuff? It certainly doesn’t appear (<- key word) to be someone that is controlled by the spirit of God, for God is certainly smarter than that. Yes?

If there is anyone out there that gets blasted with the same funnies as is seen above, don’t let it get to you. Why would anyone be discouraged in their course when their opposition can only say in scorn, “You believe your own beliefs, you want to promote them, and you want people to notice them”? Cheer up guys! All is well. It’s the tone that such things are said in that seem to give them weight, but in reality, they are lighter than a butterfly. Smash dragons huh!?

User avatar
Pastor Chick
Posts: 80
Joined: May 28th, 2012, 3:03 pm
Location: Kisoro - Uganda
Contact:

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby Pastor Chick » November 30th, 2013, 11:46 pm

James,

Where is "the church" in this generation? Are you looking for "a church"?

You obviously do NOT believe CSDAs make up the visible remnant church in this last generation.

You do not wish to read OUR articles for enlightenment, while you consistently promote your own works as potentially beneficial reading.

It is not necessary for me to meet you in order to test your spirit. You have been manifesting your spirit before us repeatedly and consistently. The prayer of Christ to his Father, contained in the seventeenth chapter of John, is our church creed, and you refuse to adhere to that creed.

Why would you even consider wanting to "join" the CSDA Church? Any "Biblical" "thus saith the LORD" for that request?

JamesPrest
Posts: 31
Joined: July 27th, 2013, 6:48 am

Re: What is "the Church"? What is "a church"?

Postby JamesPrest » December 1st, 2013, 6:45 am

Why would I want to join? Brother Chick... I don't believe in partition walls. The call to come out of Babylon is solely so that we don't partake in her sins (which naturally results in us not receiving of her plagues). Creeds, are the number one ground over which partition walls exist in the religious world. Jesus came to destroy all partition walls. True religion is not about beliefs. It is not about making sure you can prove that your church is the Lord's. Its not about knowing what happens after you die, or what day is the Sabbath. Its not about understanding the Bible or Ellen White correctly...etc. True religion, is about love; its about God's love. God's love is not confined to those who hold to a certain set of religious beliefs. God's love is not a respecter of persons, nor is it a respecter of creeds.

"In the story of the good Samaritan, Christ illustrates the nature of true religion. He shows that it consists not in systems, creeds, or rites, but in the performance of loving deeds, in bringing the greatest good to others, in genuine goodness." {Desire of Ages, 497.1}

True religion is seen in how we treat each other, not in what creed or belief we subscribe to or get others to subscribe to. What bothers me brother, is that the Christian world gets so stuck in their religious beliefs, in showing that their beliefs are true, that they forget to treat each other as Christ would treat them. In fighting so hard to show why their religion is correct in word, they make it null and void by all their works. I have sought to help people see where I am coming from, ask my questions in the clearest way to help them understand them, and I have sought to understand their responses. When I have felt like some were misundertanding or misjudging me, I have always used words like "appears" "maybe" etc, because I know that there is a place for human error and I don't want to come out and say that anyone has the wrong spirit, when maybe, just maybe, I am not understanding them correctly, or perhaps what they said is not exactly what they meant to say...etc. But in response I have gotten a very determined spirit of "This is what you think, this is what you are doing, and you don't have the Spirit of God....etc." Uh.... sure... I can understand where they are coming from, but I could more easily say the same of them (or so I perceive), but I give you space because, as some have said here, 'it is hard to judge someone's spirit via text.' There is another reason or two, but suffice it for me to say that.

Brother what has happened to us, to us all? Why are beliefs so important, that they make us judgmental and overbearing? Are beliefs important? Yes. But listen to the voice of the Spirit brother:

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and [b]have not charity[/b], I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

I am sorry brother David, but it appears (<- key word) to me, that you have a judgmental spirit. You are quick to conclude, yet slow to listen. Maybe that's not true, but I know why I have asked what I have asked, I know what questions I have had, I know what conclusions I've come to and so forth as the result of our conversations, because I know these things. They take place in my mind. Yet some appear to be sitting here, telling me all this stuff that is contrary to the facts that are displayed before my very mind concerning what I think, why I'm asking...etc. How can they do this? Though they have all knowledge and the gift of prophecy, though they speak with the tongues of angels and so forth, what good does it do, if they turn me away by telling me, as they seem to so boldly claim, what my thoughts and motives are?

Some tell me that I want to go on in my work of deception and so forth. Do they honestly believe that I want to be deceived? How did they come to such conclusion? And being the human that they are, do they have any place to say that? Lets say that they did have the gift of prophecy and did know because God told them, is their manner of speaking such as to win me into what they consider the flock of God? If they have the gift of prophecy, then do tell me so that my mind can place them in better light concerning their god-like "know-it-all" statements.

I can only speak from my perspective of the knowledge or perceived knowledge that I have. Can you or anyone else do more?

And Mr. Chick, I have specifically stated that I do not want to read the fundamental beliefs of another church, just so you know. Yes, you gathered that point right. Also, of course I don't see the CSDA as constituting the remnant. If I did, I would join her as soon as possible. The reason that I'm talking to you is because I'm trying to figure things out, things such as, is the CSDA church God's remnant. As our communication continues, I am being further led to conclude that they are not, based on their teachings and what now appears (key word) to be a Babylonian creed. Yet I keep talking, listening, asking questions, and these things might turn around. But so far, I see a human creed that I must subscribe to, and judgmentalism. If you perfere, I suppose I can cease all communication, but I would want another chance, and so I'm giving one to you all. Also, that is the only way that I can be honest and fair with myself in the case that I am wrong in my perceptions.

"Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things." (2 Timothy 2:7)


Return to “Doctrine and Theology”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests