Naraiel : Bro. Jaime sent me his material yesterday night, and I will be pasting it here in English. Ok? So, Sis. Jody, Could you please begin this meeting with a prayer?
Guest_Adriel : Yes.
Naraiel : (thank you)
Guest_Adriel : Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you for this time of spiritual blessing. We ask that Your Spirit open our minds that we may learn all that You would have us learn. In Yahshua's precious name we pray. Amen
Guest_Elyna : Amen
Barbli : Amen
Naraiel : Amen
Guest_Daphna : Amen
Guest_gadriel : Amen, Amen
Zahakiel : Amen
Naraiel : Bro. Jaime : I am grateful to the Church for encouraging me to present a brief study. I chose the reading of the first chapter.
"Honesty and Integrity "
HONESTY
The church body cannot be one if its members are not honest with each other. (Ephesians 4:25)
Being honest is telling the truth, that simple! What we say should be equal to what we did or what we're doing. The Word teaches us to be "honest." 1 John 4:8 b tells us that "God is love" and if God's love is in the believer then he must be truthful as God is truthful, for he does not lie. (LMK)
Guest_Elyna : F
Guest_Daphna : F
Guest_Adriel : F
Zahakiel : Finished
Barbli : F
Guest_Pastor_Chick : F
Naraiel : "The Christian Should often review his past life and recall the precious deliverances With gratitude that God has wrought for him, supporting him in trial, opening ways before him When all Seemed dark and forbidding , refreshing him. When ready to faint. Should recognize I have all of them as evidences of the watch care of heavenly angels. Patriarchs and Prophets , Page 188
The above paragraph expresses the concept of sincerity. A sincere individual acknowledges what he does, what he is, including his weaknesses, limitations and strengths, and whatever he has received from others, mainly from Yah.
God is truth and everything he does is a reflection of this reality, including His creation. God is honest with his people. Example: God shared his plans to Abraham about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. (LMK)
Zahakiel : Done
Guest_Adriel : F
Barbli : F
Guest_Daphna : F
Guest_Elyna : F
Guest_Pastor_Chick : F
Naraiel : INTEGRITY
Actions must meet our words. In this we must be vigilant. It would be good to write down the promises or commitments we make to others and to God, to avoid forgetting them, if necessary, so we can keep them.
According to Deut. 1:16-17 and Psalm 15c, integrity is to judge fairly and hear impartially. It is no respect of persons. It is to act firmly and decisively without fear of the circumstances, and keeping our promises even if later we could be affected by their compliance.
Honest people may not necessarily be people of integrity, but persons of integrity are naturally honest. Could you give me an example?
Zahakiel : A
Naraiel : go ahead
Zahakiel : Well, someone could admit to being biased, or a thief. They could be honest about their issues, but not really express a desire to change them. One of the problems with nominal Christianity, in fact...is that they are taught to be "honest about their failures," but they do not use the power of Yahshua to overcome, and be who they know they are supposed to be. End.
Naraiel : Thank you for that example. Any other example, before we continue?
Guest_Daphna : No
Naraiel : Ok. An example of integrity was Moses when his brother Aaron rebuked him for his actions in relation to idolatry, and he executed the will of God despite of his family or friendly relationships with family and friends, for these things do not seem to prevent a person with integrity behave in a righteous way.
1 Kings 13, tells us the story of a prophet of God who disobeyed Him, by listening deceptive words of a false prophet who claimed to speak for Yahweh (ver. 18-19) and as a result of this, he was delivered by YAHWEH to the lion, which killed him (verses 24-26).
As a consequence of the disobedience of the prophet, King Jeroboam having witnessed all these events didn't turned from his evil way, but disregarded the warning and returned to his old ways of idolatry, affecting badly the people of Israel for years. For this reason the house of Jeroboam was cut out of the face of the earth. Think of the vast number of people who didn't have the chance of being evangelized, an entire nation, and the bad example displayed to the neighboring nations. (LMK)
Zahakiel : f
Barbli : f
Guest_Pastor_Chick : F
Guest_Adriel : F
Guest_Daphna : F
Guest_Peter : F
Guest_Elyna : F
Naraiel : The story of the prophet of God who was deceived by a false prophet is a multifaceted example of the impact that honesty and integrity have on people's behaviors, and also how people fail when they deposit their trust in those who are in leadership or have authority.
Thinking about 2 Samuel 6:6-9, I see it is the responsibility of parents to talk to their children about how jealous Yahweh is about His commandments, ordinances and statues. End of Study.
Before we proceed with a few questions, Maria has a comment in regard to the prophet of God. (LMK)
Guest_Adriel : F
Guest_Pastor_Chick : F
Zahakiel : Finished
Guest_Daphna : F
Guest_Elyna : F
Guest_Peter : F
Barbli : F
Naraiel : Maria: When God gives a commandment only God can change it. Q. Why was the prophet of God deceived by the false prophet? Why wasn't he able to identify the false prophet? Would anybody like to answer that?
Zahakiel : (Is the comment related to that question, or are they two separate things?)
Naraiel : It is related I think. The comment of Maria and the questions she made based on the comment. End
Zahakiel : Q
Naraiel : go ahead
Zahakiel : Before, then, maybe she can explain how they are related?
I think I understand, but it might be good for her to express the connection. End.Naraiel : Thinking more about it are not directly related. One is a comment and the other one is a question. According to the Word, when God gives a commandment or instruction, the prophet cannot do anything else, unless God changes the instruction.
Zahakiel : Q
Naraiel : Now, her question is, why the prophet couldn't identify the false prophet, or the deception. End
Naraiel : go ahead.
Zahakiel : Could it be related in this way (and you can ask Maria)? That since Yahweh's commandments cannot be changed except by Yahweh, the prophet should be able to tell a false prophet, because he is saying something other than what Yah commanded him to say or do? End
Naraiel : Yes, she sees the relationship. End
Guest_Adriel : Q
Naraiel : Can someone answer Maria's Question?
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Adriel : So is that why Yah was so stern in his punishment of the true prophet? Because He had commanded him to do/not do certain things? And he should have known if anyone else came to him with other information he should not have listened? End.
Naraiel : C.
Naraiel : A. In the same way Moses was punished harshly, if you compare all the years of service he had... it was because of the influence he had on his people. Due to the disobedience of the prophet, King Jeroboam, as the studies says, didn't take seriously the warning of the prophet, after knowing what happened later.
Guest_Pastor_Chick : A
Naraiel : it had a great impact on the king, and the king on the people, and the nations around Israel. And the next kings of Israel follow the example of Jeroboam. End.
Naraiel : go ahead.
Guest_Pastor_Chick : Appetite is what stumbled the human family from the beginning... we are told that when appetite is overcome, any/all sin is easily overcome...wanting to believe it is OK to eat or drink will lead to a fall... justifying a perverted appetite will end in ruin. END.
Guest_Adriel : Ok. I see. Thanks
Guest_Pastor_Chick : (more...) When I fasted for those "40 days," there were many times when a voice told me it is necessary to eat... the nurses in the infirmary told me it is dangerous to keep fasting... but, I had to resolutely turn from the temptations to eat, remaining in conformity to the will of YAH for me during that fast. END.
Zahakiel : A
Guest_Adriel : Amen
Guest_Elyna : Amen
Naraiel : ok,
Guest_gadriel : Amen
Guest_Adriel : (David has an A)
Naraiel : We will continue then with the questions. Sorry, David go ahead
Zahakiel : I agree completely with what pastor said. It is only because of appetite that this prophet failed at his mission, and it was a clear case of the flesh overcoming sanctified reasoning... because the prophet knew that Yahweh had given him SPECIFIC instructions NOT to eat or drink in the land in which he was giving his testimony. We have taught that principles are more important than commands in most cases, however, in this case the instruction came directly from Yahweh, and it was very clear what he was supposed to do. This other prophet came to him and said, "Oh, Yahweh changed His mind, you can eat now."
We have to be very careful with this... because, there IS such a thing as conditional prophecy. There IS such a thing as a prophet learning more, and later updating or even altering a statement (EGW is a modern example we could mention, but there are Biblical examples as well). But... unlike the situation with Noah, there was no spiritual change. There was nothing to justify accepting a change to Yah's instructions... therefore (just like our example last night, in fact) there might seem to be "facts" to justify disbelieving Yah's instructions, in this case the testimony of someone else claiming to be a prophet, but the "truth" was that the instructions of Yah had left no room for reinterpretation or some other understanding. This is why it is important that each of us have a personal relationship with Yahweh, so that we cannot be led astray, even by those who claim to have understanding and wisdom.
Guest_Pastor_Chick : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Zahakiel : We must know, "Yah has told ME to do this." And that cannot be altered except by very specific events. End. (Sorry...that was "the situation with Jonah")
Guest_Pastor_Chick : A recent example for me is the case of this walk across America. When I first presented the "idea" to brethren, not one encouraged me with, "Great! May YAH be blessed and glorified." I was tempted to be leavened away from the task... and it was even more tempting because, in my flesh, I did NOT want to do this daunting task... however, once the brethren understood that YAH had directed me on three night visits, the tide changed... and agreement was accomplished... and now my resolve is that even if it is necessary to hobble on crutches, or push along with a walker, I shall obey my God! END.
Zahakiel : Amen
Zahakiel : C
Guest_Adriel : Amen
Naraiel : Let's continue with the questions then. Go ahead
Zahakiel : As you said, pastor... once there was the understanding that there was inspired instruction involved, then we can know surely that no obstacle (however reasonable, however based on apparent realities) can stand in the way of our Father's purpose. End
Guest_Adriel : Amen
Naraiel : Any other comment before we proceed with the questions?
Zahakiel : None here.
Guest_Elyna : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Elyna : I was thinking also that it was not because Yah just killed the prophet for a little mistake. He was in a high position of Trust, and he disobeyed, that is why his punishment was so severe. End.
Zahakiel : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Zahakiel : Right, this was what was said about the influence (like Moses) he would have on the entire nation. End.
Naraiel : ok, let's continue then.
Barbli : Q
Naraiel : go ahead
Barbli : For clarification, when I read "once there was the understanding that there was inspired instruction involved", that implies or indicates to me that when Pastor first mentioned that he was inspired to do this walk, it was not understood to be 'inspired by Yah'. Is that what you meant to say, Bro. David?
Zahakiel : A
Naraiel : go ahead
Zahakiel : That's correct. It was not until... I don't remember, some time later... that this was indicated. End. (More...) Actually... it wasn't really presented to the Church at all initially. Pastor made a comment about "the walk," and Sis. Barb said she would "be praying about it." This prompted me (I think) to ask what "the walk" meant. So there was some initial confusion about what it was, what it entailed, how long it had been in development, etc. End.
Guest_Adriel : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Adriel : I remember the initial idea for the walk was while Pastor was staying at Sheila's, but it wasn't until Pastor was camping... at Quartzite until Yah came to him those 3 nights in a row. Right Pastor? End
Guest_Pastor_Chick : That seems to be accurate... I was not sure, myself, that it was initiated by YAH (perhaps because Br. Luke was so against the idea). I am not recalling exactly how the "idea" came in the very beginning. End.
Guest_Adriel : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Adriel : I'm not quite sure whether you saw something on the internet, or there was some discussion that included that scene from Forest Gump where he ran across America, I can't quite remember. I do remember being there and both Luke and I being quite surprised by the proposition of it.
EndBarbli : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Barbli : Ok, I was not present (was in Uganda) when the idea came but I seem to remember that after Pastor told all about the walk, that it was not, at first, encouraged or supported. I am wondering if that is correct (and if so, why) or if that is remembered differently by others. End
Naraiel : Jaime has a question, about the prophet we were talking about.
Zahakiel : A (to Sis. Barb)
Naraiel : go ahead
Zahakiel : I think it is important for us to note that it is perfectly legitimate for ideas, or understandings of them, to develop over time. As mentioned above, once it was made clear that this was based on inspiration, and that pastor had a conviction that this should, indeed, be undertaken, there were no objections that I can recall. I am not sure it is useful to probe "why" the idea was not initially accepted, especially since there is some recollection gaps in everyone's mind. It may be more useful for individuals to seek obstacles to recognizing inspiration in their own experiences. This, I think, will constitute a blessing. End.
Guest_Pastor_Chick : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Pastor_Chick : I believe it is healthy and "real" to express questions about "inspirations" that *seem* extreme or strange. Certainly, IF I had been a counselor to Abraham, I would have queried him closely about his "idea" of sacrificing his son. Within the church family, there ARE differences of views about some things. We cannot all agree about decisions that have been made in the past... (Some of which are seen by some as "inspired" or mandated by YAH)...
Zahakiel : C (before we get to Bro. Jaime's question
)Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Pastor_Chick : as long as we do not oppress another brother or sister in our lack of acceptance OR we demand our view to be the standard, YAH will eventually bring forth the truth, and "wisdom is [always] known of her children." END.
Guest_Adriel : Amen
Zahakiel : I agree with that completely. As much as I love and respect Pastor "Chick," I am not going to agree with him in words unless I actually "agree" with him in understanding and purpose
But then... this is what adds VALUE to our agreement. Because when I say, "I agree," it means, not that I am just following along... but that I am legitimately in favor of what is proposed, and that I expect it to be a blessing according to Yah's purpose.Because we are of one faith, one Lord, one baptism, we expect, of course, that we will have one purpose and one direction, and the history of this Church certainly reveals the reality of that. But, there are going to be healthy disagreements about some particulars at times, and I learn as much (if not more) from these times of discussion in resolving those things that if everything said immediately met my expectations and approval. End.
Guest_gadriel : Amen
Guest_Adriel : Amen
Barbli : C
Naraiel : go ahead
Barbli : Thank you for this discussion. That helped to clarify. End
Zahakiel :
Naraiel : Jaime wanted to know... if the prophet of God was a man of God, is he going to be saved, even though he had to die for his disobedience?
Zahakiel : A
Naraiel : go ahead
Zahakiel : IF the prophet died in the state of mind he had when accepting the false testimony... unfortunately, he could not be saved. He had let appetite overcome his commitment to righteousness, and that is "sin."
We do not know his thoughts or state of mind after leaving the other prophet's house... perhaps he repented, but like Moses needed to undergo the physical consequences as a testimony to the world. We don't know that... but, since his name is not mentioned in Scripture that may be a subtle indication that he did not repent. We will have to wait and see if we meet him. End.
Naraiel : Thank you. I believe the Bible would have mentioned something like he repented. We will have to wait to find out. And now the second question. Why do people lie?
Guest_Adriel : A
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Adriel : I think there are a lot of reasons. Fear, to gain an unfair advantage, protection from enemies as in the case of Rahab and the spies. Sometimes as in my case when I was younger, it was easier for me to say I did something that I really didn't do to keep from getting beaten twice. End.
Guest_Elyna : A
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Elyna : People lie for a broad range of reasons but it boils down to a lack of love. Either they have not understood or accepted LOVE. Whatever is not of love is sin.
Naraiel : I would say more specifically because of fear of some kind and because the person may not have an understanding of what true love is, because she/he were not treated with love.
Guest_Elyna : And as one grows in Christ, they understand more and more the principle. They may do or do not do something that someone else sees as normal... but having a deeper understanding, we come to avoid the very appearances of what is not love. End.
Guest_Daphna : Q
Naraiel : Thank you. Go ahead
Guest_Daphna : Do you ever wonder as I about these worldly courts. They interrogate for hours. I've been told 9 hrs. or more. I often think it would be very hard to keep saying no when you were not guilty. I think that is so unfair, most people would say they were guilty when they were not. I think they do that to them day after day until they say yes. End
Naraiel : Yes, well, the catholic inquisition also had that method I believe. Ok, next and last question .
Guest_Daphna : ok
Naraiel : (last question from Jaime, because Maria has different question, after that)
Naraiel : How can we know we are walking in integrity?
Guest_Adriel : A
Naraiel : go ahead
Guest_Adriel : If we are doing what we say we will do. End
Guest_Elyna : A
Naraiel : (Maria is ok for David to respond her question) Go ahead
Guest_Elyna : Our conscience and others, our brethren or even strangers. End
Naraiel : Ok, Let's close the meeting then with a prayer. Sis. Barb, Could you please close with a prayer?
Barbli : ok. Dear Loving Father in Heaven, thank you again for these hours we can spend together in fellowship and for the discussion that we have had. May each of us take away from this meeting what You have for each of us. We thank you for the inspiration we have received. In Yahshua's name we pray. Amen
Guest_Adriel : Amen
Guest_Pastor_Chick : Amen.
Zahakiel : Amen.
Guest_gadriel : Amen, Amen
Guest_Daphna : Amen
Naraiel : Amen
Guest_Elyna : Amen
Guest_Pastor_Chick : Work while it is day, for the night cometh... YAH BLESS and bye for now.